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Stop Worrying About ColdFusion Already!

Posted on Apr 12, 2008

It seems lately the world of ColdFusion bloggers has become re-obsessed with the topic of ColdFusion's place in the industry with more rallies to the defense of the ColdFusion community and calls of "ColdFusion is not dead". Honestly this argument has played itself out so much over the years that it is tiresome and generally gets argued amongst people whose opinions are never going to change anyway. First you have the "ColdFusion Hater" who is generally dead certain of ColdFusion's impending demise despite a general lack of evidence or knowledge about the place of ColdFusion within Adobe and its current state of development (yes, they are hard at work on version 9). Then there is the "ColdFusion True Believer" who argues the exact opposite position though equally uninformed and who seems to believe statements like "ColdFusion rulez" is a convincing argument. Occasionally voices of reason jump into the debate, but since the point is not about reasonable discussion they are quickly drowned out by the flames.I have steared clear of this debate in part because it doesn't actually do anything to make ColdFusion any more interesting to outsiders (in fact it always seems to make the ColdFusion community seem less welcoming to me - which it isn't in general). Here's the thing though...ColdFusion is a niche language and probably will remain one for as long as it is produced. However, if you believe Adobe's statements on the subject, which I do, it is a profitable niche and I think its status is completely safe as long as this remains true. It is way too late in the game to make ColdFusion as popular as .Net or PHP but I think we are making some small but important inroads with RIA integration and some great new features in each release. Still, when ColdFusion 9 is released in a year or two, ColdFusion won't suddenly become huge - we all know that, Adobe knows that and it doesn't really matter. Also, I am sorry but making it free and open-source will, in my opinion, not make it hugely popular all the sudden and will kill the very part that keeps ColdFusion going - that it is a profitable niche. I say that as someone who is generally an advocate of open-source.

What is wrong with the ColdFusion community being relatively small anyway? Personally, I quite like that aspect. I like that I can go to cf.Objective() or CFUnited and not have to wade through thousands of folks I don't know in a community so large that it is both unapproachable and anonymous. I like that I know so many of the names of other developers in our community and that I have had conversations with so many of them over the years. The relative smallness of the ColdFusion community is part of what makes it appealing and approachable. In my experience in various states in the USA, there is generally enough work for a CF developer - actually, in Boston, in a down economy there is no shortage of CF positions right now. While this could always be better, I don't think this is a major concern, stateside anyway. In fact, I think if we accept the size of our community as one of our strengths and embrace it we might potentially make it more inviting to other developers because we might not feel the need to come out swinging every time someone knocks the language or community.

The point of this rant/ramble is perhaps to refocus the discussion on embracing our strengths as a community: 1) ColdFusion is an easy-to-learn, flexible yet powerful application server; 2) the ColdFusion community may be small but is vibrant, active and approachable; 3) ColdFusion's place in Adobe seems safe and stable in part because it is a mature and profitable niche; 4) ColdFusion job availability is good relative to the size of the community; 5) the ColdFusion community has begun to embrace an openness and sharing that wasn't there even a few years ago which can be seen in the rapid growth of ColdFusion-focused blogs and open source projects in recent years. The last point I think is key. Rather than wasting any energy defending ColdFusion to folks who aren't going to be convinced, write some articles, create an open-source project or generally share your knowledge (if you aren't already) - this will do more to help ColdFusion than any argument on some minor mailing list.

Comments

Maybe I can be one of those voices of reason? Possibly, you be the judge.

Here's what causes me to be one of the people that doesn't believe ColdFusion is fine.
1. I have a lot of web developer friends that like to ask me why I prefer CF over their more popular language of choice.
2. At my job, our managers agree with #1 and are motivated to convert everything to .Net (so far we have won that argument, but how long will that last?)
3. I see companies like Apple who fell from a dominant market position to about 3% of the market share (in operating systems), but are now making a strong come back (they're up to 16% according to one report, and that number keeps growing).

Given the above three facts, I am a little worried about CF /personally/, because I fear that I might NOT be able to code with it in the future, regardless of how much I love CF. And given #3, I know that it's possible for ColdFusion to make a comeback. Will it happen? Time will tell, but to be honest, I haven't seen any dramatic changes from Adobe in this respect.

If you talk to any good marketer, you can NOT win marketshare with innovation alone. You have to win mindshare and loyalty. So far Adobe seems to go with the status quo when it comes to ColdFusion. Running ads in magizines and websites is NOT enough. For CF to win back marketshare, they have to pour money into their sales force, as well as customer service. It's my understanding that Adobe has 2-4 people dedicated to selling ColdFusion. How in the h$#% is that going to compete with the likes of Microsoft?

All that said, I do agree with you that ColdFusion will not die, and can always live on as a small niche product. But personally, I am not satisfied with a niche product. And I am not lying when I say that I have been taking a serious look at PHP in recent months.

Posted By Jake Munson / Posted on 04/12/2008 at 11:42 AM

Hi Brian

I do agree ColdFusion is getting better, http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

ColdFusion is on 20th postion compare to last year which was 31 position.

Open-Source really make difference, Check Ruby position.

Why Ruby Hype....?

Posted By Sana / Posted on 04/12/2008 at 12:05 PM

Good points all around. I do think this is an exciting time for CMFL. Open Blue Dragon is creating a lot of buzz in the community.

Posted By Jim Priest / Posted on 04/12/2008 at 1:50 PM

The way I look at it is this: As far as I am concerned, I have found a tool that let's me do what I want, how I want to do it, and it suits me fine. If it doesn't suit the next guy - why do I care? Everyone is different, everyone has something that suits them better.

However, if someone else uses what I use, I have no problem helping them out and improving their skills. I realised a long time ago that converting people to a new tool is a very hard thing to do.

OK, so it might be that they aren't aware of CF, and go for PHP, and yes, there is work that can be done by Adobe there - but as far as I am concerned, I am happy with CF and look forward to CF9.

So let's say Adobe do decide to kill off ColdFusion. Does it really matter? Are we incapable of moving elsewhere? Is there anything preventing us from using Bluedragon or Railo instead? Are we unable to learn new skills? We are all web developers - not just ColdFusion developers.

OK, it would be nice to be using the most popular platform, and having lots of jobs to choose from, but I also love the way that the CF community is generally very skilled, and not so susceptible to hype - unlike some others.

These arguments, give CF bad press as it looks from the outside that the community is scared of an imminent demise of the platform - so we can we put this one to bed now?

Posted By Neil Middleton / Posted on 04/12/2008 at 2:03 PM

@Brian Just for info:
To be honest I really don't mind what other people talk about CF. There is one thing which is bit strange, price-tag three license £16000 (UK). for a small size business its bit difficult to offer a CF solution.

open-source project (cool)!!! I think nearly 40,000 thousand CF developers but only few who like to make some contribution.

Posted By Sana / Posted on 04/12/2008 at 4:00 PM

I think any comments denouncing CF come from the PHP/.NET/whatever crowds that have no clue what CF has to offer them. They probably realize what a dead end .NET is and are worried about their jobs. And sifting through the PHP garbage out there is a daunting task for any developer, no wonder some of them feel the need to protect 'their language'. Other languages ride the hype bandwagon and we all know how that story ends. Adobe and the CF community need to do a better job marketing CF, period. I don't think they need to be #1, but the current volume of new developers and clients is unacceptable. CF is way better than .net/php/ruby/etc. Hands down the best. Absolutely no question. We just need to prove it to the rest of the world. Go build some kickass websites/applications! Write articles that outline why CF is the best! Laugh at those that feel the need to downplay CF!

Posted By Ben / Posted on 04/12/2008 at 6:59 PM

@Brian,

Sure, there will always be people in other camps that will try to convince me to use another language. But what if it's my Boss? What if I'm told to learn .Net, or hit the road? I'd rather learn PHP and swith jobs (plenty of PHP jobs around...). As far as finding another CF job, it took me 4 months to land one the last time I was out of work (CF jobs are few and far between in Boise). That's not fun.

As far as Flex/Air/Java, frankly I'm not interested. I've tried to learn Java many times, and it's too restrictive for my taste. And I haven't bought into the hype surounding Flex/Air...I don't like the idea of using Flash as an application platform, and I'm not interested in desktop development...been there, done that. So I'd be much happier with PHP if I could stay with CF.

Posted By Jake Munson / Posted on 04/12/2008 at 8:46 PM

Jake has a very good point. If you are geographically constrained, it is not in your best interests to only have demonstrable experience in one platform, especially a platform that commands a third to fifth of opportunities in other platforms...

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=coldfusion+or+%22cold+fusion%22&l=
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=php&l=&sort=date
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=%22c%23%22&l=&sort=date
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=j2ee&l=&sort=date

Posted By Calvin / Posted on 04/13/2008 at 1:40 AM

@Calvin - indeed.com has graphs for trends. http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=coldfusion+or+cold+fusion%2C+php&l=

Posted By Mike / Posted on 04/13/2008 at 5:58 AM

1. In Europe there are few coldfusion jobs.
2. We can't create killer open source projects because ColdFusion is not OpenSource and it is not free. We can't compete against PHP or .net. A PHP developer can build a sofwtare that can be installed in every platform for free. PhpBB, MediaWiki, SugarCRM, Joomla etc etc are used in the enterprise and small companies because they are free. The companies don't risk anything to try these softwares.
With ColdFusion we can't develop OEM applications.

Posted By Marc / Posted on 04/13/2008 at 3:36 PM

Blog ate my first comment - so here it goes again:

@Marc - Might I suggest that if OEM apps are important to you, then you are most likely needing to use a tool other than ColdFusion. CF is not a one size fits all answer to every problem - there are other tools out there that do certain things a lot better (PHP for OEM stuff). There is no silver bullet.

We never signed a contract stopping us from using anything else did we?

Posted By Neil Middleton / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 3:52 AM

I do like the idea of let's focus on the community at hand and continue to strengthen it. We will make non-CFers envy us by doing so.

@Brian, the impact of OpenBlueDragon is yet to be seen, but I do have high hopes. Not on the enterprise level, but on the simple web-site level. If CF shared / VPS hosting starts competing on price, I think "shoe-string budget" places would go for it.

And it can only help the CF open source projects. If someone already has a brochure-ware site and needs to add a forum, install Open-Source BD, MySQL and Ray's Galleon project and boom, they have what they want.

Posted By Matt Williams / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 6:50 AM

First off, I would like to say that Brian has made some excellent points here especially in the realm of some more OS projects. I think a lot can come out of having some large popular projects are "Powered by ColdFusion" that more than the CF community know about. For instance, a turnkey blog application that is as easy to style and install as Wordpress.

@Jake: If it's your boss that's telling you to learn another language, then do it, it is probably in your best interest. Also, what is so wrong with Java? It is still one of the most popular and most widely used languages around today next to C. And Brian is right, learn this complimentary language to ColdFusion. Not only does it teach a lot of really good programming concepts, but it's pairing with ColdFusion also proves worthwhile when hooking up directly into Java classes. Please respond with what you find restrictive about the language? What language are you comparing it to. Couldn't be C, since Java is quite a bit more powerful than C with it's native OO structure, references, and powerful garbage collection.

Furthermore, as a software developer, how can you not get excited about technologies like Flex and AIR that are finally harnessing the true power of the Internet. Flash IS a great application platform due to the ever-increasing and more powerful than ever ActionScript 3 language. Flash 9 is installed on over 95% of the world's personal computers. That's really good exposure to your online application. Since you are not even interested in desktop apps, that is what you should be most concerned about. Not to mention the consistent feel of the application across multiple browsers, the production efficiency is unprecedented.

Furthermore, your statement about

Posted By Kyle Hayes / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 7:18 AM

@Kyle,

What I meant by java being restrictive is that it is STRICT, and I am comparing it to ColdFusion which is much more relaxed. In Java you have to spend many hours bowing to the alter of the compiler, fixing type issues, case sensistivity issues, and other time wasting bugs. I'd rather finish my project in about 1/3 of the time and move on with life.

As far as Flex...are you aware that many web users outright block Flash? Sure, they have it installed, but their browser plugin blocks in by default, and then they whitelist sites as needed. These kind of users will be hard to win over, as they hate Flash so much that they'll generally leave your site before running your flash app, unless there's an BIG desire to see your content.

And as far as your 95% statistic...Adobe is the company that paid for the survey (assuming you are quoting the penetration survey on adobe.com), and we all know that statistics that come from the source of the survey aren't not generally trustworthy. For example, Microsoft used to tout surveys that "proved" that Windows is more reliable than Linux...but again, Microsoft is the company that funded those surveys.

But for argument's sake...let's say Flash IS on 95% of users desktops. Why would I ask that last 5% to install a plugin that they've avoided so far, for a good reason in their mind, when I can write a plain HTML page that WILL work in their browser?

Finally, I have one more problem with Flash. Many corporations remove Flash from their employee's PCs. Don't ask me why (because I think it's stupid), but it's true. My company has NOT removed Flash, yet. But they have removed Firefox, QuickTime, and some other common desktop apps that they deemed "non-business related". So I'm expecting them to remove Flash before too long...

As far as this quote: "If it's your boss that's telling you to learn another language, then do it, it is probably in your best interest." My managers were investigating a move to .Net last year, but we shot that down. But their final parting words were, "We'll stay with ColdFusion...for now." And frankly, if they ask me to learn .Net, I'll find another job. Life it too short to just give in and live through that kind of torture. I don't consider hating my job "in my best interest."

Posted By Jake Munson / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 10:44 AM

Heh, Jake, as the saying goes use the right tools for the right job. I didn't say to stop using CF and start using Java for everything. I believe my point was that you could learn Java and use it as a complimentary language to ColdFusion.

I agree with the fact that there are many users who do not have the Flash plugin installed and probably a certain percentage that don't/need want it. Again, my point was that the 95% that does have it, is a good size audience. If you are that concerned with the reaching the remaining 5% of users who do not have it, develop a less-sophisticated and harder to use pure HTML site. Pure HTML? Yeah, because if you used JavaScript (including AJAX) the same argument could go that you used for Flash; many people have JavaScript turned off and it can also be compromised easily these days with tools like Firebug.

Clearly, your application development focus is not in the RIA arena, so discussing Flash as a medium for delivering such content is unnecessary.

Finally, my point about switching to a new language as per your supervisor's recommendation is to be taken with a grain of salt (as with most comments on the Internet). It is certainly not something to get all riled up about. Think of it this way, you've been working with ColdFusion at your company for a certain amount of years and after some R&D, they decide to go .NET/PHP. As long as you are flexible and have a desire to learn new things, educating yourself on other dynamic lanugages like .NET/PHP is a good thing because that improves your marketability and overall well-roundness as a developer.

Please do not take my comments personally, Jake. Public comments on the web, unless vulgar and self-diminishing, are directed to and benefit the community as a whole.

Posted By Kyle Hayes / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 11:04 AM

We're doing a CFML Community version of ColdFusion Weekly next week (for release the week after next), and rest assured it'll be a lively discussion. I think there are numerous points being missed in the usual discussions.

Posted By Matt Woodward / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 1:05 PM

@Kyle

No offense taken, and none intended. :) But I have to counter this comment: "Clearly, your application development focus is not in the RIA arena, so discussing Flash as a medium for delivering such content is unnecessary." I am actually squarely in the RIA arena, but I prefer to use DHTML instead of Flash. Which goes back to your point about JavaScript, which is a valid point. However, when I developed cfquickdocs.com, I was able to get everything working with IE 6/7, Firefox, Opera, and Safari. So I'm pretty happy with my coverage. I know you're probably thinking, "But if you develop for Flash, you don't have to worry about so much browser testing!" That might be true, but as I stated before, I don't like the idea of Flash as an application platform. Movies, games, ads, etc. are fine. But not an entire application. If you like it, have fun! I'm not going to try to convince anybody to stop using Flex, it's just not for me (and the reason I originally started arguing against Flash was because you suggested I should learn it as a complementary language).

@Brian,

I don't really believe I am painting myself into a corner. I've stated multiple times that I wouldn't mind learning PHP. And I strongly disagree with you that there is no future in PHP. In fact, I know a LOT more PHP developers in my neck of the woods than I do CF developers. And in fact, many of those people even use PHP with Flex. And yes, some of those guys try to get me on the Flex bandwagon as well... ;)

Do I think ColdFusion will die? I've stated before that I don't believe so. I just feel that PHP is a much more marketable language, as far as careers go, and IF I am forced to leave ColdFusion at some point down the road, PHP is a good backup, in my opinion.

Sorry if I'm a bit overbearing in my arguments...I'm not upset, but on occasion I become a little passionate in my arguments.

<Jake offers a friendly handshake>

Posted By Jake Munson / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 1:12 PM

For what it's worth, I just did a job search on dice.com to see how Flex matches up against PHP when it comes to job listings:
PHP: 2539
Flex: 1032
ColdFusion: 506

Posted By Jake Munson / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 1:33 PM

Well considering that Flex and PHP are not the same type of languages, a better check would be to search for "Flex OR ActionScript" to see what comes up. Even then you are not comparing the same thing as Flex is not used to create traditional web sites like PHP is.

Posted By Kyle Hayes / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 1:38 PM

I think Flex however is headed to the same 'behind closed doors' usage as CF? Where are the cool Flex apps? We're looking at using it where I work - but it would for the Intranet. Meanwhile people continue to churn out high exposure stuff like WordPress and Mediawiki with PHP.

Posted By Jim Priest / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 2:50 PM

OK. Just added TechCrunch to my RSS reader :)

Sprout is horribly broken on Firefox and Linux. It works but the layout is all wonky. My kids are upset :)

Posted By Jim Priest / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 3:54 PM

@Brian - I agree with you that there's a battle going on right now, and I think that's great. I LOVE competition. And I truly hope nobody wins, but rather they all keep battling and innovating, with an fairly equal share of the market. But one thing you may be overlooking is that PHP can work well with Flex and/or Ajax, and I'd assume it could work with Silverlight too (not sure about that). So it seems to me that you are only focusing on the client side, and forgetting about the server language one has to use.

I want to clarify that I DO have a path, or rather a plan for my future. My preference is that I can stay with CFML as long as possible, wether that be with Adobe CF, or with Open BD only time will tell. But to shore up my possibilities, I am working with a friend on a PHP project, which I hope will get me up to speed on PHP. This PHP stuff is on the side, I still have a stable job coding CF. I'm just not sure how many years the CF stuff will last at my current job, and as I mentioned before, CF work is very hard to come by in Boise Idaho. This last fact is the basis for most of my comments above, and is why I'm looking at PHP. So I am not really standing still. But thanks for the advice. :)

Posted By Jake Munson / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 7:33 PM

Oh, and for the record, I do have an open source project that is fairly popular:
http://cfformprotect.riaforge.org/
I think (and I am a little biased) that this is a fairly advanced way to stop spam, in a user friendly manner. I have received a number of patches from other developers, and I have plans to add more features to harden the spam protection in the near future.

The only problem is that my project requires a CFML server, natrually. However, I have had a few people ask me if my project could be ported to another language, which of course it could. But my point is that I have had interest from outside of the CF world, which is a sign that people may choose to use a CFML server so that they can use CFFormProtect.

Posted By Jake Munson / Posted on 04/14/2008 at 7:39 PM

@Jake I have to call you on your last comment here.

"However, I have had a few people ask me if my project could be ported to another language, which of course it could. But my point is that I have had interest from outside of the CF world, which is a sign that people may choose to use a CFML server"

Just b/c people are asking if it can be ported to another language, that means they may choose CFML? Come on, dude that's a huge leap by anyone's standards. Make a good argument and at least try to be rational in that argument. You're making a huge, unsubstantiated, assumption and trying to pass it off as reason.

Posted By Andy Powell / Posted on 04/17/2008 at 5:16 AM

Here's one good reason to worry about cold fusion:

Check out this *ridiculously asinine response* to a n00b asking about ColdSpring.

http://groups.google.com/group/coldspring-users/browse_thread/thread/f34ba3d6e7906a89

I've seen a lot of asinine commentary in my day, but this one is one of the worst.

..and yet we sit around shoegazing, wondering why CF isn't more widely adopted?

Posted By Chad Svoboda / Posted on 04/17/2008 at 12:50 PM

@Chad: I saw that one fly in about an hour ago and was appalled by his response to Rolo. I felt that it was totally uncalled for and certainly does not give us a good first impression.
While Rolo's comment may have initially come across as offensive, what he said was true and I don't really meant much by it. He even later apologizes in thread which I thought we had lost him by that point.

Nonetheless, a message to the CFers. Please be nice to our potential newbie developer's. Especially if he is checking out a framework. You should encourage folks like that, as they are the ones who make it stronger.

Posted By Kyle Hayes / Posted on 04/17/2008 at 1:12 PM

Yes - it IS tough at times to deal with the newbies or people highly critical of your pet project. I know there have been times I've wanted to fire off a hot email or blog comment.

And Dan DID apologize later in that thread and hopefully all is well in the ColdSpring community...

Posted By Jim Priest / Posted on 04/17/2008 at 1:28 PM

Hi all,
My name is Daryl and I'm with oDesk, and I wanted to comment on this post. As an outsourcing site, we still see great strength in Coldfusion Trends. Feel free to check them out for yourself over at http://www.odesk.com/trends/coldfusion. This is based on real, current freelance/outsourcing jobs data from our site. If this data brings up any questions, or there is something else regarding the data that anyone would like to see (concerning CF and/or other programming trends), just let me know.
- Daryl James
oDesk

Posted By Daryl James / Posted on 12/20/2008 at 7:18 PM